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Q: Can someone reveal a Creeper hidden under their Elder Sign after the game has ended due to an UnGoal, to secure the victory via Cult Clash?

A: There are two situations which could be the case. The first one is actually very easily resolved, but the second one is a bit more complicated.

1: Doom points are even, and the revealed Creeper would tip the Doom points in one player’s favor.
2: Doom points are uneven, and the balance would change when the hidden Creeper is revealed.

1: Since Cult Clash is in play, there can be no situation where all players lose. Cult Clash is intended to ensure there will always be a winner (for example, in a tournament situation, you’d want to have a winner for every game). Therefore, in this case, if both players were tied for the number of Doom points, you do as you would for any “tie” or “simultaneous win”: the game continues until there is a clear winner. So the game has not “ended due to an UnGoal,” and the player with the Elder Sign simply reveals their hidden Creeper, and wins.

2: If, on the other hand, the game ends due to an UnGoal with Cult Clash in play, and Player A appears to have the most Doom points, until Player B reveals a Creeper hidden under their Elder Sign, then Player B is essentially stealing the win from Player A, similar to using a Surprise to cancel a game-winning play, so just like using a Surprise in such a situation, it’s all going to depend on INTENT and TIMING.

If you’re looking to cancel someone else’s win, you’ve got to be really on-the-ball about it. Basically, Player B, with the hidden Doom Points under their Elder Sign, needs to be prepared for the possibility of the Cult Clash victory so that they can deliberately reveal their hidden Creeper to steal the win AS SOON AS THE UNGOAL IS TRIGGERED.

If Player B only realizes they have more Doom than they thought AFTER the count has publicly been made… they missed that opportunity. Cthulhu called, and they were out to lunch or something.

Q: What happens if an UnGoal is fulfilled but the promo card The Traitor is in play?

…There are a couple of different outcomes when an UnGoal is fulfilled. The standard result is that everyone loses, however, there are a few cases where someone can win with an UnGoal. The question is, does the Traitor get to “steal the win” in any of these cases?

A: Lucky for us, The Traitor card only mentions Goals, not UnGoals, so having The Traitor in play does not do anything special in the case of a game ending due to an UnGoal:

• If everyone loses, the person with the Traitor loses as well: though “Evil wins” it was due to an UnGoal and not a Goal.
• If the person who has he Traitor wins because of the UnGoal, they simply win, since it only prevents victory by Goal, not UnGoal.
• If some other player wins because of the UnGoal, they simply win, because the Traitor can only steal wins achieved through a Goal.

Q: My wife played the Secret Cultist AFTER the game had ended due to an UnGoal. Can she do that?

A: Yes, that’s exactly what she can do. The Secret Cultist, is, naturally, working for the downfall of everyone, staying hidden until the Old Ones rise to take control, at which point the Secret Cultist comes out of hiding and claim at least enough credit so as not to get destroyed. Being a Surprise card, it’s meant to be played out of turn, including, in this case, specifically just after the game has “ended” due to an UnGoal.

Sorry to break it to you… Thanks for playing our games. Maybe she can put in a good word for you after the apocalypse or something.

Q: What happens if a Goal and UnGoal are met at the same time?

… We were playing Cthulhu Fluxx, and what complicates things is that my wife had the Secret Cultist, so she would win if the UnGoal overrides the Goal, but my son would have won with the Goal if that overrides the UnGoal. [Note from Looney Labs, in Cthulhu Fluxx, a simultaneous Goal and UnGoal could arise from either Double Agenda or The Stars Are Right. Zombie Fluxx and Martian Fluxx could also generate this condition since they both have Double Agenda and an UnGoal. Zombie Fluxx also has the Zombie Boss Rule which can make a player win in the case of the UnGoal being met.]

A: Well, this IS a doozy. Andy and I had to think this through carefully.

But in the end, the answer seems obvious: on the rule sheet itself, at end of the first page in “Notes” is the ruling for ties:

“The game doesn’t end until there is a clear winner. If for some reason two of more players meet the winning conditions simultaneously, the game continues until a single winner emerges.”

So, for your situation, the answer is actually fairly simple: there were two players meeting winning conditions simultaneously, so keep playing until a clear winner emerges. Note that the “clear winner” need not be one of the two originally tied. It could happen that someone else manages to break the tie and win instead of either one of them.

What got a little tricky for us, is that we also wanted to rule in cases where the Cultist/Secret Cultist/Zombie Boss wasn’t invoked, which is to say when there is one player winning, but the conditions for “all players losing” is also met. How could that be? Would we rule that there is only one player winning? Or would we rule that there is “no clear winner”, since that player should simultaneously be both winning and losing?

We went with the latter: If a Goal and UnGoal are met simultaneously, then, even if there is not an actual player that can claim victory in the case of the UnGoal conditions, having the UnGoal met is like having the “forces of evil” be the winner. So if a player meets the winning condition, they are actually tied with “the forces of evil” , thus play would continue until a clear winner emerges.

In a way, all that the Cultist/Secret Cultist/Zombie Boss does is make an actual player represent those forces of evil, thereby claiming that victory.

Q: Do Creepers prevent the Secret Cultist (or the regular Cultist) from claiming his win on an UnGoal?

A: No. The idea is that the Secret Cultist benefits from the end of the world in ways regular players do not, so everything is backwards — that which would normally make you lose now helps you win. So if victory is found through the Minions of Darkness, it’s just a bonus if Cthulhu himself also joins the party!

While the win conditions for the (non-secret) Cultist are more narrow, the same is true, since they’re winning with an UnGoal, reveling in the destruction of all we hold sane.

Q: After I’ve been revealed as the Secret Cultist, can I still win on an UnGoal?

I know I lose my next turn, but is that ability still available to me?

A: You can only win with the Secret Cultist if you are playing it as an out-of-turn play. If you are forced to play it as an actual in-turn play, you take the penalty instead of the out-of-play ability. Thematically, the idea is that you’ve been exposed as the Secret Cultist and your plans therefore ruined. They locked you up until you came to your senses (your lost turn) and you no longer worship the Ancient Ones.

Note that if you play the Secret Cultist as a counter-Surprise, it does not count as using its in-turn function, and does not “reveal” you, so you don’t take the penalty. It’s more like you were a Secret Cultist for a while, but then you got tired of hanging out with those losers, and just decided to leave on your own.

Either way, whether you’re thinking about it thematically or not, there’s no way you could retain that special status/ability. Since you can only claim your Secret Cultist win by playing it out-of-turn after the game ends with an UnGoal, you need to still have it in your hand when that happens. If you’ve already played it in any fashion, that card has been used up, and is now in the discard pile. You’re no longer the Secret Cultist. In fact, if the discard pile is reshuffled, someone else might end up with it in their hand, in which case THEY would be the (as yet unrevealed) Secret Cultist. You’re just some failed has-been wannabe Secret Cultist (or successful survivor of a dangerous cult experience!)

Q: The Cultist states that “you win if the Dunwich Horror UnGoal conditions are met. Does the Dunwich Horror have to be in play for that to happen?

A: The Dunwich Horror Ungoal has to be in play. It was tricky for us to word this. If it were a Goal, then we could say “if someone wins with…” which would require the Goal to be on the table. What we really meant was “If everyone loses because of the Dunwich Horror UnGoal…” which would, of course, mean that the Dunwich Horror is in play. That didn’t seem right since everyone is not losing – the Cultist is winning!

Think of it as though the Dunwich Horror Ungoal acts as a Goal for you if you have the Cultist in front of you. Obviously the Dunwich Horror has to be in play in order for you to win with it, just as for any other Goal.

Q: What do we do with the Goal and UnGoal when The Stars Are Right is taken out of play?

How do we decide which one to keep?

A: The situation is just like resolving the two Goals that result from Double Agenda: whoever got rid of the Rule allowing the double Goal/Ungoal situation gets to decide which to keep, and which to toss.

UNLESS Cosmic Agenda is also in play (which forces you to play UnGoals). In that case, you should be forced to keep the UnGoal in play, and trash the Goal, because this is analagous to having to play the UnGoal.

Q: For the Retreat! UnGoal, do the players who have Germs and the Army also need to have other Creepers as well, or do those do double duty as “having a Creeper”?

To review: The Retreat! UnGoal says “If Germs and the Army are on the table, and all players have at least 1 Creeper, the game ends with no winner.” Do Germs and the Army count as “at least one Creeper” or do those players have to have at least 1 Creeper in addition to Germs and Army?

A: No, they don’t need an additional Creeper beyond Germs or Army to cause everyone to lose. Both those cards DO count as generic Creepers in addition to their specificity.